Loose girls: empowered or frowned upon?
March 23, 2011 - 6:43PM
Comments 138
by Kerry Cohen
==================================================
The other day I heard an interesting interview on the radio with a woman who described herself as having spent her youth "hopping from one man's bed to another".
Why? We'll get to her reasons in a moment.
But first, the segment delved into the notion of modern female promiscuity; the reasons behind why some women do it, and the double standards that exist when it comes to men versus women being promiscuous.
The subject of the interview was author Kerry Cohen Hoffmann of Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity. She explained to host Alan Roger Curry that, while women who are promiscuous often do it to satiate their own sexual desires, sometimes they do it to fulfil another (albeit worrying) need: the yearning to feel close, loved and cherished by a man.
Yeouch. I understand there are women who equate sex with love. But surely these days women have wised up? Surely they understand that men will do, say, buy anything to get some action between the sheets?
Of course, any woman who has casual sex with a man she's not in a relationship with will know all too well that, on the night, while she might feel closer to the dude she's bonking (physically, emotionally, even spiritually!), the next morning when the booze has worn off, the pheromones have died down and she's no longer looking as hot as she did the night before, he's (most of the time) no longer that into her.
If you're one of those women expecting something more, don't be fooled.
If, on the other hand, you're not one of those women, I'm not quite sure you're going to be so happy when you hear what's to follow either. Because, while women are entitled to the same physical pleasures as men, society still frowns upon a gal who owns her own sexuality, has sex like a man would and forgets to call him the following day, if ever again. And therein lie the double standards.
When I posed the questions to Ask Sam readers the other day, many interesting points were made. As predicted, the blokes said it was great; the women said there was no such thing as "no strings attached sex". Melissa wrote "It works great for guys, but girls will always get emotionally attached. So girls will always get hurt by it. Great for guys, bad for girls."
Yet Robert made a good point. "Paradoxically, it's available for girls and unavailable for (most) guys."
And Marko reckons there's no such thing. "Nobody has sex for free. There is always a price to pay. To your character, finances, reputation, health, self-esteem, friendships, relationship opportunities. Just saying … there's always a price."
In a bid to discover more, I contacted Hoffmann in the US and this is what she had to say …
Me: Does female promiscuity hurt a woman's psyche?
Hoffmann: Well, not exactly. My work is about how lots of girls/women use male attention and sex as a way to fill something emotionally. I'm not talking about sex addiction, which is more about sexual desire. The "loose girl issue", as I call it, is about how sexual desire actually gets lost inside the desperation for connection and some sense of being worthwhile. And I argue that this is largely culturally cued, particularly by media, which makes clear that girls are made worthwhile via their sex appeal (as well as their ability to keep their sexual behaviour in check) - a terrible conflict that is put on girls: be sexy, but not sexual.
Me: Is there a double standard going on?
Hoffmann: Absolutely there is. My belief is that boys are given ownership over their sexual development. Girls aren't. As we grow up, this can be very damaging. Many men say that women should just take the reins over their sexual selves and dismiss what anyone else says. But I argue that it isn't that easy when you've internalised decades of being told who we can and can't be sexually. Do I wish women could do that? No question. But I don't think it's so simple.
Me: What does it actually mean to be promiscuous?
Hoffmann: I believe promiscuity is a loaded word, and I used it ironically in the title of my memoir. My "promiscuity" was about needing something from boys; using them to feel like I mattered in the world. It didn't work, of course. I only felt worse, and judged, because the boys were not surprisingly uninterested in such a needy girl. So I was often rejected or left or ignored after sex. It was my own fault, but I hadn't understood it at the time.
But, I'm avoiding the question. Culturally, being promiscuous means sleeping with many, many men. Defined that way, in my mind, there's nothing wrong with promiscuity. But our culture certainly makes it hard for women to be promiscuous and not get judged.
Me: What makes you the expert on all this?
Hoffmann: Ha! I don't know if I'd say I'm an expert, another loaded word perhaps. I wrote the defining book about loose girl behaviour, called Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity, and I have the psychology book about it coming out in September:Dirty Little Secrets: Breaking the Silence on Teenage Girls and Promiscuity. So, I lived it. Also, though, I'm a psychotherapist specialising in this subject matter.
What do you think?
138 comments so far
I would like to know what qualifies her as a psychotherapist?
dmt - March 23, 2011, 7:20PM
Sam, I'd like to see this topic expanded some. I'd suggest that the issue of "girls just wunna have fun" is very tired - although never resolved. But I'll put you another matter - what if a women likes sex, regular passionate sex - who does this "fit" within a relationship. Oh, don't laugh. I'm sure many guys would say great. But it can be great as it changes the entire relationship dynamics (as in the feerrie tales) The women is suppose to have control of the sex in the relationship; ergo control of much else in teh relationship. Thus, she has given up a lot. We can also look at the whole "wunna have fun" thing too. "Is there something wrong with me?" I've heard that a bit (not a lot as you can't say it out loud). A loving partner will say of course not, and seek to negotiate all the other arenas of a relationship, show respect, care. But it isn't always so. What is a women to do?
Fluellen | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 7:23PM
There is a double standard. No, it isn't right but it's just one one of those things that hasn't changed even though people's behaviour has.
I would agree with the author that when women "sleep around" for want of a better term, it is because they are looking for intimacy and connection. True there might be some women who have a male mindset when it comes to sex but I think a lot of the women do it because they are attracted to someone and want to form a relationship with them. It complicates things.
I'm a female in my early 40s and I'm a product of my time too. I remember women being spoken of disparagingly for doing what everyone knew the men did. Often it was the same men doing the talking. Go figure. It is a pity that things don't seem to have moved on much in the intervening years.
melbo | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 7:25PM
What do I think?
Well for once I don't have an opinion as I don't believe I've been with a loose or promiscuous woman so for the purposes of sharing an informed opinion based on practical field work please send a couple of attractive disease free slatterns my way for a week or two.
I will return them unharmed and only slightly soiled. I promise to be fulsome in describing my experiences.
Ta
Bob
Bob | Westish - March 23, 2011, 7:44PM
'women should just take the reins over their sexual selves and dismiss what anyone else says".
Nice in theory but it doesn't always quite work that way. While I agree we should take ownership of our bodies and decisions there are consequenes to our choices. As in, yes, there are double standards when it comes to the slut/stud label for women.
Female sexuality has always been a hot topic - everyone has an opinion. Society dictates what is considered acceptable and unacceptable sexual behaviour but is a lot harsher when it comes to the sexual activities of the potential mothers of the nation.
There is no way to tell if a woman is sleeping with many people because she has a large sexual appetite or whether she's trying to get 'love' or approval from a man (well I suppose clinginess will give it away)
It's confusing to be told that as a woman you're only worth is in your capacity to attract a man and in being physically attractive. No wonder some women get sex, love and intimacy mixed up.
The only thing you can do is instill confidence in your children to trust themselves, respect their bodies, and to make their own decisions in regards to their sexual choices. Only do what feels right and comfortable for them. That way, even if things go pear shaped it's still their decision.
Also teach them that for many people sex does not equal love or automatic approval from a partner. So be clear on what you as a person need, and what you're looking for (if anything).
So in the end I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with the original quote. Just be sure of the reasons for your choices.
razrea - March 23, 2011, 8:06PM
Right, now I'm annoyed. I have no idea if my essay was accepted or not.
razrea - March 23, 2011, 8:14PM
Of course there's a double standard. Society is harsher on women when it comes to their sexual behaviour.
So there is no way to determine if a woman is sleeping with a lot of men due to her sexual appetite or because she's looking for 'love' or acceptance from them. I suppose the clinginess would help give it away.
The only thing to do is be comfortable with your own choices and decisions. And then keep it to yourself :)
razrea | Assuming that my other post disappeared.... take 2 - March 23, 2011, 8:30PM
I was talking about this today with a mate.
We both agreed that womens sexuality has changed and women have promiscuous sex as much these days as men if not more so.
I think younger women have a totally diferent viewpoint on sex and that women 35-45 are far more sexually aggresive than they want advertised.
In fact women these days are placing far less value on sex and on relationships in general to be honest, that doesnt mean they dont want sex but I think its less about love etc and now the sex is about having a good sexual experience with a person they are attracted to, if a relationship develops terrific if not well ho hum....
Having dated many women in the past 2 years and having bedded many of them, I find women are very eager to get to the bedroom but far from eager to committ to a relationship.
Thats just my expereince and thoughts.
ADAB | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 8:57PM
Bottom line is that people need love. If they can't find good love, they will settle for bad love - and for trying to feel connected through sex, and for becoming household servants or whatever.
Confidence in oneself is what is lacking. Nothing else. The knowledge that you are a worthwhile human being, that you are loving and loveable. If you can't look in the mirror honestly at yourself and feel that, then it's time to work out why not.
It's a cliche that one finds a mate when one is not looking. When you are happy with your life, your friends, your family, doing what you like to do (or planning, studying, working on getting to that place!), and enjoying yourself, you instantly become much more desirable - as a lover, friend, mate etc etc.
Too many people look on being in a relationship as a sort of 'end goal'. As in "I'll be happy when I'm married" or "I'll be happy when I'm with so-and-so" ... doesn't work that way, never has, never will. Happiness is a by-product (only!) of living a satisfying and productive life - feeling that you are worthwhile and are doing worthwhile things. Another person can NOT make you happy. Only you can make you happy, and you can't make it a goal, but only know that when you achieve your goals, you will be happy with yourself and your life, provided of course, that the goals were (a) achievable to begin with and (b) what you really wanted, not what you thought you wanted.
Fury | NSW - March 23, 2011, 9:04PM
If you want to do something about the promiscuous girl double standard then be as easy as men to pick up. Don't treat it like you are the prize and men have to win you.
So-called double standards only exist because of the differences between men and women in the dating market.
Bender - March 23, 2011, 10:46PM
(source:smh.com.au)
March 23, 2011 - 6:43PM
Comments 138
by Kerry Cohen
==================================================
The other day I heard an interesting interview on the radio with a woman who described herself as having spent her youth "hopping from one man's bed to another".
Why? We'll get to her reasons in a moment.
But first, the segment delved into the notion of modern female promiscuity; the reasons behind why some women do it, and the double standards that exist when it comes to men versus women being promiscuous.
The subject of the interview was author Kerry Cohen Hoffmann of Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity. She explained to host Alan Roger Curry that, while women who are promiscuous often do it to satiate their own sexual desires, sometimes they do it to fulfil another (albeit worrying) need: the yearning to feel close, loved and cherished by a man.
Yeouch. I understand there are women who equate sex with love. But surely these days women have wised up? Surely they understand that men will do, say, buy anything to get some action between the sheets?
Of course, any woman who has casual sex with a man she's not in a relationship with will know all too well that, on the night, while she might feel closer to the dude she's bonking (physically, emotionally, even spiritually!), the next morning when the booze has worn off, the pheromones have died down and she's no longer looking as hot as she did the night before, he's (most of the time) no longer that into her.
If you're one of those women expecting something more, don't be fooled.
If, on the other hand, you're not one of those women, I'm not quite sure you're going to be so happy when you hear what's to follow either. Because, while women are entitled to the same physical pleasures as men, society still frowns upon a gal who owns her own sexuality, has sex like a man would and forgets to call him the following day, if ever again. And therein lie the double standards.
When I posed the questions to Ask Sam readers the other day, many interesting points were made. As predicted, the blokes said it was great; the women said there was no such thing as "no strings attached sex". Melissa wrote "It works great for guys, but girls will always get emotionally attached. So girls will always get hurt by it. Great for guys, bad for girls."
Yet Robert made a good point. "Paradoxically, it's available for girls and unavailable for (most) guys."
And Marko reckons there's no such thing. "Nobody has sex for free. There is always a price to pay. To your character, finances, reputation, health, self-esteem, friendships, relationship opportunities. Just saying … there's always a price."
In a bid to discover more, I contacted Hoffmann in the US and this is what she had to say …
Me: Does female promiscuity hurt a woman's psyche?
Hoffmann: Well, not exactly. My work is about how lots of girls/women use male attention and sex as a way to fill something emotionally. I'm not talking about sex addiction, which is more about sexual desire. The "loose girl issue", as I call it, is about how sexual desire actually gets lost inside the desperation for connection and some sense of being worthwhile. And I argue that this is largely culturally cued, particularly by media, which makes clear that girls are made worthwhile via their sex appeal (as well as their ability to keep their sexual behaviour in check) - a terrible conflict that is put on girls: be sexy, but not sexual.
Me: Is there a double standard going on?
Hoffmann: Absolutely there is. My belief is that boys are given ownership over their sexual development. Girls aren't. As we grow up, this can be very damaging. Many men say that women should just take the reins over their sexual selves and dismiss what anyone else says. But I argue that it isn't that easy when you've internalised decades of being told who we can and can't be sexually. Do I wish women could do that? No question. But I don't think it's so simple.
Me: What does it actually mean to be promiscuous?
Hoffmann: I believe promiscuity is a loaded word, and I used it ironically in the title of my memoir. My "promiscuity" was about needing something from boys; using them to feel like I mattered in the world. It didn't work, of course. I only felt worse, and judged, because the boys were not surprisingly uninterested in such a needy girl. So I was often rejected or left or ignored after sex. It was my own fault, but I hadn't understood it at the time.
But, I'm avoiding the question. Culturally, being promiscuous means sleeping with many, many men. Defined that way, in my mind, there's nothing wrong with promiscuity. But our culture certainly makes it hard for women to be promiscuous and not get judged.
Me: What makes you the expert on all this?
Hoffmann: Ha! I don't know if I'd say I'm an expert, another loaded word perhaps. I wrote the defining book about loose girl behaviour, called Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity, and I have the psychology book about it coming out in September:Dirty Little Secrets: Breaking the Silence on Teenage Girls and Promiscuity. So, I lived it. Also, though, I'm a psychotherapist specialising in this subject matter.
What do you think?
138 comments so far
I would like to know what qualifies her as a psychotherapist?
dmt - March 23, 2011, 7:20PM
Sam, I'd like to see this topic expanded some. I'd suggest that the issue of "girls just wunna have fun" is very tired - although never resolved. But I'll put you another matter - what if a women likes sex, regular passionate sex - who does this "fit" within a relationship. Oh, don't laugh. I'm sure many guys would say great. But it can be great as it changes the entire relationship dynamics (as in the feerrie tales) The women is suppose to have control of the sex in the relationship; ergo control of much else in teh relationship. Thus, she has given up a lot. We can also look at the whole "wunna have fun" thing too. "Is there something wrong with me?" I've heard that a bit (not a lot as you can't say it out loud). A loving partner will say of course not, and seek to negotiate all the other arenas of a relationship, show respect, care. But it isn't always so. What is a women to do?
Fluellen | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 7:23PM
There is a double standard. No, it isn't right but it's just one one of those things that hasn't changed even though people's behaviour has.
I would agree with the author that when women "sleep around" for want of a better term, it is because they are looking for intimacy and connection. True there might be some women who have a male mindset when it comes to sex but I think a lot of the women do it because they are attracted to someone and want to form a relationship with them. It complicates things.
I'm a female in my early 40s and I'm a product of my time too. I remember women being spoken of disparagingly for doing what everyone knew the men did. Often it was the same men doing the talking. Go figure. It is a pity that things don't seem to have moved on much in the intervening years.
melbo | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 7:25PM
What do I think?
Well for once I don't have an opinion as I don't believe I've been with a loose or promiscuous woman so for the purposes of sharing an informed opinion based on practical field work please send a couple of attractive disease free slatterns my way for a week or two.
I will return them unharmed and only slightly soiled. I promise to be fulsome in describing my experiences.
Ta
Bob
Bob | Westish - March 23, 2011, 7:44PM
'women should just take the reins over their sexual selves and dismiss what anyone else says".
Nice in theory but it doesn't always quite work that way. While I agree we should take ownership of our bodies and decisions there are consequenes to our choices. As in, yes, there are double standards when it comes to the slut/stud label for women.
Female sexuality has always been a hot topic - everyone has an opinion. Society dictates what is considered acceptable and unacceptable sexual behaviour but is a lot harsher when it comes to the sexual activities of the potential mothers of the nation.
There is no way to tell if a woman is sleeping with many people because she has a large sexual appetite or whether she's trying to get 'love' or approval from a man (well I suppose clinginess will give it away)
It's confusing to be told that as a woman you're only worth is in your capacity to attract a man and in being physically attractive. No wonder some women get sex, love and intimacy mixed up.
The only thing you can do is instill confidence in your children to trust themselves, respect their bodies, and to make their own decisions in regards to their sexual choices. Only do what feels right and comfortable for them. That way, even if things go pear shaped it's still their decision.
Also teach them that for many people sex does not equal love or automatic approval from a partner. So be clear on what you as a person need, and what you're looking for (if anything).
So in the end I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with the original quote. Just be sure of the reasons for your choices.
razrea - March 23, 2011, 8:06PM
Right, now I'm annoyed. I have no idea if my essay was accepted or not.
razrea - March 23, 2011, 8:14PM
Of course there's a double standard. Society is harsher on women when it comes to their sexual behaviour.
So there is no way to determine if a woman is sleeping with a lot of men due to her sexual appetite or because she's looking for 'love' or acceptance from them. I suppose the clinginess would help give it away.
The only thing to do is be comfortable with your own choices and decisions. And then keep it to yourself :)
razrea | Assuming that my other post disappeared.... take 2 - March 23, 2011, 8:30PM
I was talking about this today with a mate.
We both agreed that womens sexuality has changed and women have promiscuous sex as much these days as men if not more so.
I think younger women have a totally diferent viewpoint on sex and that women 35-45 are far more sexually aggresive than they want advertised.
In fact women these days are placing far less value on sex and on relationships in general to be honest, that doesnt mean they dont want sex but I think its less about love etc and now the sex is about having a good sexual experience with a person they are attracted to, if a relationship develops terrific if not well ho hum....
Having dated many women in the past 2 years and having bedded many of them, I find women are very eager to get to the bedroom but far from eager to committ to a relationship.
Thats just my expereince and thoughts.
ADAB | Melbourne - March 23, 2011, 8:57PM
Bottom line is that people need love. If they can't find good love, they will settle for bad love - and for trying to feel connected through sex, and for becoming household servants or whatever.
Confidence in oneself is what is lacking. Nothing else. The knowledge that you are a worthwhile human being, that you are loving and loveable. If you can't look in the mirror honestly at yourself and feel that, then it's time to work out why not.
It's a cliche that one finds a mate when one is not looking. When you are happy with your life, your friends, your family, doing what you like to do (or planning, studying, working on getting to that place!), and enjoying yourself, you instantly become much more desirable - as a lover, friend, mate etc etc.
Too many people look on being in a relationship as a sort of 'end goal'. As in "I'll be happy when I'm married" or "I'll be happy when I'm with so-and-so" ... doesn't work that way, never has, never will. Happiness is a by-product (only!) of living a satisfying and productive life - feeling that you are worthwhile and are doing worthwhile things. Another person can NOT make you happy. Only you can make you happy, and you can't make it a goal, but only know that when you achieve your goals, you will be happy with yourself and your life, provided of course, that the goals were (a) achievable to begin with and (b) what you really wanted, not what you thought you wanted.
Fury | NSW - March 23, 2011, 9:04PM
If you want to do something about the promiscuous girl double standard then be as easy as men to pick up. Don't treat it like you are the prize and men have to win you.
So-called double standards only exist because of the differences between men and women in the dating market.
Bender - March 23, 2011, 10:46PM
(source:smh.com.au)
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